Thursday, September 13, 2007

Spiritual Nonsense

I've just belatedly seen Richard Dawkin's latest 2 part TV rant. The first one, 'Root of all Evil', was aimed at organised religion and a rather fabulous book, 'The God Delusion', followed. This program, 'Enemies of Reason', looked at irrational supersticious practices such as tarot, faith healing and spiritualism.

The main thrust of Enemies of Reason was that these practices are unproven and based on personal assertation rather than evidence. This is harmless enough on the surface, but it has the knock-on effect of giving false hope, debasing science and scientists, proliferating potentially dangerous conspiracy theories, turning science into a dirty word and causing distrust of medicine and progress.

Now, there's something that doesn't sit quite right about these programs, and many people level accusations at him and his beliefs such as "he's as fundamental as the people he attacks" or "science is the new religion". I admit that this was my initial response, too. But having watched the programs and read the book and really thought about it, boy does he have a point. This point is timely and salient, and this is probably why it causes such a strong, defensive reaction.

First off, although Dawkins is not the greatest presenter, it's about time we had learned, highly intelligent individuals on the telly. Just about any dimwit can get their face on the box these days, so to have perhaps the most celebrated evolutionary biologist since Darwin grace our screens is a step in the right direction. Surely if The Sun is the most read British paper, and half a million people regularly read the inane, weekly drivel in Heat magazine, then a 2 part series by a bonafide Professor is a welcome addition to our cultural pool! It's a shame that he only speaks to one or two similarly learned people - listening to great minds debating is a fulfilling and wonderful thing. Listening to a professor slaying a sweet lady who believes angels are watching over her is cringeworthy. Ah well, such is the state of our media.

Amyway, what he has to say is, perhaps, harder to accept than his mere presence on the screen. He appears to be having a go at normal people, living their lives the way they choose and believing in harmless things that probably benefit them more than they hurt them. Take faith healing for instance. If it works for some folk, even if it is merely a placebo, who cares? Does it matter if it's 'real' or not? I don't think so, and Dawkins at least pays lip service to that point. His main point, however, goes deeper than this and involves the frivolous, un-checked column space and airtime given to unsubstantiated practices such as astrology and alternative healing. For a scientific discovery to be published or broadcast, long and rigorous procedures must be followed in order that the discovery can be backed up with evidence. However, just about anything goes when it comes to practices that are based on personal belief, or faith. Such wanton spreading of the unscientific word belittles science and makes it out to be the bad guy, some kind of malevolent force that is going to ruin the world and take us further away from some perceived but wholly imagined golden age of innocence. Experts become untrustworthy monsters and progress is deemed unnatural.

However, science has probably kept you or someone you love alive. It's probably got you to exotic climes for a holiday. It's enabling you to read this blog (for whatever that's worth!) It's the fuel of what we call progress. And lets be realistic and leave romanticised images of living at one with the land aside, I think we all cherish and wholly rely upon at least parts of Western progress to survive. Granted, it's not always been like that and people do live with the land (albeit in desperately poor conditions for the most part), but where we're at now in the West is not going to be swept away by wishful thinking and naivete, and the answer to the problems that do exist is not to discard science outright as a bad idea.

7 Comments:

At 7:48 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

Great blog!

You and I have talked about this a little, and I must say, since then I still have not read the 'God Delusion', but I have thought about this topic quite alot.

Would you be interested in a blog version of our debate, and if so could I post a short critique of questions to your post?

 
At 9:52 AM, Blogger Dave said...

go for it! :-)

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Firstly, could you reiterate how Dawkings deals with the question of belief systems within societies? For example, religion does not work under scientific rules of knowledge, but neither does science work in the world of religion. Therefore to try and dismiss or even understand one with the other is a fallacy, isn't it? To put it another way, there is a anthropological story when this debate first came up around the turn of last century. A ethnographer called Evans-Pritchard commented on how a tribes belief in magic and witchcraft managed to sit comfortably next to a knowledge of basic science, and how one did not cancel the other. So, when a granary fell down on someone and broke their leg you could say that it happened because of termites, but why it happened just then, was witchcraft. So religion and science could be answering two different questions: How and Why.

I must say, I feel no defensive response to these shows, or Dawkins himself. I don't like him on personal grounds that I think he is bloody arrogant (and ultimately that makes him closed minded!). And yes, it is lovely to see these debates on TV, but I think the argument itself would have been better taken on by someone who was prepared to debate it at a higher level, rather than quizzing people who he obviously feels are beneath him. Let us not forget that many men of histories brightest minds have been believers. In my mind, it would be impossible to take the debate to the correct level on a evenings viewing; its just too complex.

Could you explain to me how he sees personal belief as belittling science, and why should this be a problem if it holds its self up so correctly to reasoning etc? Why does everyone 'need' to accept it? What difference does it make? Science will still remain correct won't it?

I see what you mean by an age of innocence that many see technology as removing ourselves from, there is a lovely article about the original affluent society (Stone Age Economics) which sums this up nicely, but I agree its rubbish. But, and this is where I think you and I will differ greatly, so is progress. It is a fallacy.

Technology becomes more complex, we become very clever and do some fantastic things (www etc!) but 'progress' implies an ultimate goal, as if technology will solve all out problems (such as the problem of increasing population and decreasing resources!) Progress is the belief world of science. People talk about it as if one day we will 'arrive' in some Utopian world. Change is natural, so is flux, and things will get worse, and they may get better again, but we are not progressing anywhere.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not discounting science. I am also not saying that we should all ask our angels for help with the climate change problem (one of those amazing side effect of 'progress') but what I am saying is that science is a never ending search of truth, and ultimately that means there are somethings that, as yet, it can not explain. Just because something is not scientifically explainable or can not be measured (as yet) by technological advancements, it does not mean it will not be.

Finally, and I am sure you will breathe a sigh of relief, one thing that I hate more than anything else is people demanding they are right beyond all other ideas or beliefs. I might agree with Dawkings, and often I do (although I know some Genetic Biologists who tell me his genetic theories in that book are heavily flawed) but I will always battle against someone who will not listen or accept that there are other truths other than their own. Its blind, arrogant and it is ultimately not helpful.

 
At 9:20 AM, Blogger Dave said...

Hi mate, will respond to your comments soon and re-fire our debate - had to write part 2 first though! ('spiritual sense')

 
At 2:53 PM, Blogger Dave said...

Right, off we go then. By the way, I'll happily address your questions about Dawkins here, but I would like to move on to more personal thoughts (influenced and informed by others such as they are) as we go on rather than embark on an ongoing pro-Dawkins treatise! I too have my issues with the man, you see.

So, the validity of examining belief systems within a scientific framework. I think Dawkins argument is something along the lines of:

God either does or doesnt exist, therefore the question of his existence is a scientific one, and subject to probability, regardless of whether or not we ever arrive at a definite answer. Many questions thought to be ever unprovable one way or the other have eventually been proved or disproved by the logic of science.

Its not the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas. Using this logic, you could make up anything and expect people to believe it simply because they can't disprove it. The example Dawkins cites (it's not his originally) involves the assertation that an invisible, undetectable teapot orbits between Earth and Mars. This is as unprovable as God's existence. Accepting that it cant be disproved, but accounting for its patent absurdity, reasonable people are therefore teapot-agnostics, leaning towards being a-teapotists. Why, then, does the fact that a dogma has been around for thousands of years and accepted by millions of people (ie, religion) mean it's any less open to reason/science than the orbiting teapot?

Your example about witchcraft toppling the granary at a particular moment and science explaining the termites eating away at it is interesting, but very human-centric. Imagine that a tree collapses deep in the forest, with no humans about, crushing a squirrel. Does this mean that squirrel witchcraft toppled the tree? Witchcraft/religion explains such things when people (or squirrels!) decide something is fatalistically relevant.

Dawkins sees personal belief as belittling science in the following way (again, in a nutshell and from memory!) :

By its very nature, science is subject to change. It adapts to evidence and scientists are happy to change their views according to new discoveries, etc. Science is about fact. Planes fly because of facts about aerodynamics, for instance. The proliferation of 'anti-reason' instills a distrust in science that perhaps Dawkins finds unfair. Unfair because science is so fundementally based on facts and evidence. It belittles science if the belief that, say, an unmeasurable drop of essential oil in a bottle of water can heal someone is stronger than the absolutely provable and steadfast fact that antibiotics are up to the job. Such matters of faith can lead people to shun and even fear science, and debunk it as some kind of neo-quackery. It doesn't matter if people don't accept that. Like you say, if science is right it will continue to be right. But Dawkins is concerned with the implications and the extremes. Such reason-lacking belief can lead to fundementalism. It can also lead to a drop in the number of people studying science or medicine, therefore a drop in funding for genuinely useful medical research - the sort that has wiped out certain diseases in much of the world. I think Dawkins is looking to the future by identifying the root cause today.

I actually agree that 'progress' is a fallacy, and I usually put it in inverted commas too. I tend to see things holistically which is how you're describing them when you talk about change, flux, ups and downs, etc. You're right - we're not actually progressing towards a utopian goal. However, such holistic analysis isn't always appropriate. We have to live in the world we live in and we have an obligation to think of subsequent generations. Yes, one day we'll die out and the universe will be no better or worse off because of it - 'better' and 'worse' are mere human projections. But there are certain realities facing us now and to say 'ultimately it doesnt matter' isn't helpful to the starving and the dying and the desperate (unless everyone succumbs to nihilism or taoism!)

 
At 10:52 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Hmmm... Allow me to retort! ;)

I think I will work in reverse, if that is ok? Firstly, as I have this fresh in my mind and have to vent, your connection of nihilism and taoism is strange to say the least. Could you explain how this exemplifies your point?

Yes, we are agreed then that there is a flux, and I also agree with you that to say 'ultimately it doesn't matter' is not helpful. But, I would therefore argue, that neither does science whos benefits are only for those that can afford it. They are not the starving, but they do find something beneficial in the hands of their gods (small case intended).

But first, "Dawkins is concerned with the extremes", which in itself is a rather fundamental nature...but I have never met anyone who distrusted science. It is such a prolific paradigm that it is held deep with the human consciousness. I am neither saying this is right or wrong, but I am saying that when we get on that plane, so helpfully kept in place by science (not the passage of air over the wing, but the description and understanding of that act?!) We simply accept that it will take us where we need to go.

Now the drop in funding and interest in science... well I must admit I would love to see the study that places the reason for the drop is due to the increase or simple constant, level of 'belief' systems. I would conjecture that this is in fact more to do with a deeper level of acceptance of science. When it is accepted, it becomes uninteresting to the young. The leaps being made now seem so distant and far from the general word. This is not an advancement of industry and mechanics (both heavily science based) but genetics and Gibson style technology. I would hazard that we are suffering from an alienation from scientific progress that removes the desire to study it. As for funding... are we saying that those who want to do a PhD in Theology are better placed for funding that those after on in Biochemical Engineering? To sum up, I am still not comfortable with Dawkins reason for believing that there is a threat from non-reason based systems of thought. Can you help, or do I basically need to read this damn book! ;)

A human centric example... hmmm. Nice, but surely a flawed idea. Can you show me a non-human centric idea or thought or situation? And then can you confirm it me that it is so? Science, amongst other things, teaches us the limitations of our abilities. We are human, therefore out thought is human centric...end of. The tree can crash in the forest and the people I mentioned would care not the less as to the why of it. They are interested in 'why' it happened at that time, as science simply can not answer that question, which they want/need. They might still see that the squirrel toppled the tree, and they might think that there is a 'why' to it, yet since that does not include a human, which is self important at the very least, then the why seems irrelevant.

Teapots in space. Cool, I know this argument. I have another one... When I am feeling unwell I take vitamin C or I drink OJ (or both). I do this as I Vit C benefits my immune system, I have done it before and I eventually got better. Now I know that science has 'proved' this, I know that. But I can not 'reason' it. I can not tell you exactly how drink OJ helps me. All I know is that I feel better when I do this, and lets be honest we all accept the power of suggestion don't we? So, what difference is there in me, when ill, taking a tincture of liquid, feeling better (because I believe I will) and me drinking OJ because it has something in it called Vitamin C. I know I could look up how it worked and read all the arguments, but to be completely convince I would have to see all the facts for myself, follow all the reasoned arguments. We don't do we. We accept the knowledge of the dominate paradigm in our society, like one would accept any belief system. This is an anthropological point of view...so I am simply a product of my learning I guess.

I will finish with this... "God either exists or he doesn't. therefore the question of his existence is a scientific one" so he deals with the question of how you look at a belief system which does not work within a logical paradigm (much like science under a religious one) by simply stating that its a scientific question? That idea has been looked at for literally hundreds of years... and the logic of science can neither prove or disprove it... yet it continues to ask the question, even if Dawkins does not.

 
At 6:08 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

I just started a module called the 'Philosophy of Science'. Although I feel you would enjoy most of it, mainly I feel you would enjoy looking at me smuggly as I am shown learned man after learned man who agrees with you...

For a change I did come across this...

Worth a read...

http://pataphysics-lab.com/sarcophaga/daysures/Feyerabend,%20Paul%20-%20How%20to%20Defend%20Society%20Against%20Science.pdf

 

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